AUTHORS' ANNEXE (English Language Discussions)

[keithgood838]

Many thanks, Marian, for the lovely evocation
of your local environment; Mortimer West sounds
idylllic. The following describes my divided loyalties
between where I live now where I lived till the end
of my teenage years:

TOWN TO TOWN

From a town in West Cork
where bells steep the streets
in ecclesiastical sound,
to a south Herts. town
whose High Street bustle
is by bells joyously drowned.
From a cattle-mart town
lying, snug, in a picturesque vale,
to a market town
standing proudly high on a hill:
my heart is in Barnet now,
but my soul is in Bandon still.

Keith


PS Graham Norton (actual surname Walker)
comes from the same West Cork town;
we have little else in common, however.

[keithgood838]

Jon, my literacy friend,
I have a question of a technical nature on which
your opinion will be appreciated. In quoting McGonagall's
deathless lines you used double quotation marks, as indeed
do most newspapers and magazines in similar situations.
However in compliance with the rule, double within single,
I tend to stick with single quotes unless I am using quotes
within quotes; I also happen to think single ones are more
aesthetic, but that's an aside. What is your take on this topic?
Keith

[keithgood838]

My mate Jon has disappeared from the radar.
Hereunder another linguistic lesson while we
await his return:

REDUNDANCIES

We should not still employ
past-sell-by forms,
words that do not conform
to current norms.
Terms such as whilst,
unbeknownst and amidst
have faded into
time's cliche-cold mist.
So while we add old st
to our list
one extant retainer
stays in our midst.

Keith
(Must keep my postings ratio high somehow)

[paul jh]

A while ago, I was confused as to when to use while vs whilst. Lena, Harry, and Mariana provided an explanation, but it's hidden somewhere in this forum (difficult to do a search on "whilst" ). Keith: Can you help? Americans rarely use whilst, but frequently use amongst and occasionally amidst.

[keithgood838]

Hi Paul
Just as our different approaches to the use of English
can cause confusion, so our separate time zones are
likely to lead us astray. I believe I answered your query
regarding words ending with st in my piece entitled,
REDUNDANCIES, which actually precedes your quote.
Such constructions are now considered to be out of date
and although not wrong are regarded as bad style and
should be avoided. The word, midst (noun, adjective
and preposition), is the only one I know of ending with st
which still finds favour with the purists.
Keep the questions coming; I love indulging in linguistic
discourses.
Keith

[Gray]

Hi Keith

I seem to remember being taught at school when quoting someone use 'doubles'....

However, my memory is going now I've hit 40 so I could be wrong

[michduncg]

I seem to remember being taught at school when quoting someone use 'doubles'....

Indeed Gray, we were taught to use "" to denote someone speaking - the ' that most people use on here is the apostrophe

This is all fascinating stuff Keith - I had a wonderful English teacher during my 'O' levels, he was in his 65th year when we sat our exams, and so were the last class that he taught. He had a real passion for our language as clearly you do too. His claim to fame was that he had taught English to our old head girl, Selina Scott and another 'old boy', jockey Bob Champion. (Claims to fame from the small town of Guisborough are hard to come by! )

One of his pet hates was the misuse of the word momentarily. Many people assume that this word means that something will happen in a moment, when in fact it means something will happen for a moment. So when the tannoy at JFK announced that "Baggage for the passengers on the BOAC Monarch flight from London will arrive momentarily" he was straight over to the information desk to point out their mistake ! I've never forgotten that and still cringe if I hear a classic misuse of this word

[keithgood838]

Hi Gray and Michael,
Thanks for your interesting observations. Gray, the use
of quotes is absorbing because there are no clear rules
governing the topic. It all depends on publishers' house
rules. I go along with the slight modern preference for
single quotes in direct speech; however one has to be
careful because a single quote on a keyboard also operates
as an apostrophe as Michael rightly points out. Confusion can ensue.
Michael I love your story about the misuse of momentarily.
This is a case of misapplied prepositions, in instead of for.
A pet hate of mine is the supermarket sign that erroneously
proclaims, 'Ten items or less.' Below is my attempt
to shed light on the matter:

DIMINISHING RETURNS

Less refers to quantity,
fewer is about number:
e.g. if you make less tea
you use fewer teabags
and avoid the grammatical blunder.

Keith Good


Note. Exceptions here are periods of time
and sums of money, which are single entities.
Therefore write, less than four months and
less than thirty pounds.

[jon]

Hi Keith

I think double quotation marks are more appropriate for quoting speech while single quotation marks are suitable for citing things like book titles etc., though there is no hard and fast rule.

One of my major bugbears in the use of language is the increasingly common trend for the expression "...should have..." to be rendered "...should of"..". This drives me mad and is particularly prevalent among younger people, a result, I suspect, of teaching by those who themselves have not been well versed in grammar and of the encroachments of text language-speak on the nation. And it is also practised by one regular contributor to this forum, who shall of course remain nameless...

[Marian]

I agree totally Jon.
Another one used regularly that really annoys me, is the use of OFF OF instead of just OFF. It's even used in the song Can't Take My Eyes Off You.

Marian

[mariana44]

I guess at times most of us are guilty of mistakes in spelling or grammar--I am sure that I am---however, if the postings are interesting, informative or funny, and as long as they come from the heart, that to me is the most important thing.

Hopefully, over the weekend, if I get chance--or if AOL lets me--I will share some of the thoughts of my dear late husband, regarding the English Language---all perfectly polite, I can assure you.

[paul jh]

I agree with Mariana completely. I know I make plenty of mistakes in English. Having said that, the things that bother me the most are :

it's used as a possessive pronoun

hisself instead of himself

theirselves instead of themselves

I should have went instead of I should have gone

I correct people constantly on these errors.

Marian: I always thought that the title of the Frankie Valli song was Can't Take My Eyes Off Of You. At least that's what it sounds like he's singing. As I've written before, the Andy Williams version with the correct title made zero impact in the US. I didn't know he recorded it, until I joined the Matt Monro forum. This time the U.S. got it right ... the Frankie Valli version is far superior.

[keithgood838]

Welcome to this well-punctuated debate, Jon.
I knew we could rely on you for some insightful
observations, thanks. James Joyce had a novel approach
to punctuating dialogue: he simply dispensed with
quotation marks altogether and instead used a dash
to introduce direct speech.
I think dear Marian(a) is becoming a little bored
by all of this pedantry, and with some justification. Marian(a),
the purpose of the exercise is to pay homage to that darling
of literacy:

SWEET CLARITY

Champagne and caviar to the eyes
is she in belletristic guise.
Punctuation properly in place;
of slovenly spelling not a trace.
No split infinitive to eschew,
no dangling participles spoil the view.
Lines of descriptive sophistication
galvanise the imagination
and the message of the ensemble borne
like the subtle way her gems are worn.
The sloe-black dress on milk-white skin
cue passion's drumbeats to begin ...

Keith


Note. Belletristic is an adjective
derived from the French noun
belles-lettres which means, fine letters.

[mariana44]

No Keith--I am not bored in the least---your facts are always fascinating, and presented in a way that is easy to inderstand. I was just pointing out that a couple of spelling or grammar mistakes are not that important on a forum like this.

At least nobody uses that ghastly text messaging language--like "gr8 2 c u" I cannot bear that.

[ROBERT M.]

Marian, Mike used gr8 the other day