AUTHORS' ANNEXE (English Language Discussions)

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paul jh
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Post by paul jh » Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:09 pm

Keith: Thanks for the additional assistance with 'shall'.

:?: Now a question of the correct verb to use with 'or'. I believe 'or' is called a coordinator.

You wrote:

"Although shall is normally used in the first person,
it may also apply to the second and third persons
as well as the first, when compulsion or obligation are
involved. "

Isn't a singular verb used with two singular subjects joined by 'or' (whilst a plural verb is used with two singular subjects joined by the conjunction 'and')? However you used 'are' instead of 'is'. I'm wondering if I learned this wrong from my English and Latin teachers many years ago. :?

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keithgood838
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Post by keithgood838 » Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:26 pm

Hi Paul
What a good question - keep 'em coming.
First, or is a conjunction as indeed and is.
They are also central coordinating conjunctions together
with but. I should have worded the phrase,
'when both compulsion and obligation are involved'
thereby precluding any confusion over whether the single
or plural verb was correct. However, because they are
both coordination conjunctions I think they are interchangeable
in the context of the sentence. I am not aware that
the conjunction or connecting two nouns should take
a singular verb but I may well be wrong; I don't know
all the answers. I wonder whether the American/English
disparity is at work here. I hope my mate Jon is reading
this; he has a superb command of English and may resolve
the matter for us.
Keith

PS Which other website produces this degree of erudition?
I love it!
Last edited by keithgood838 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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mariana44
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Post by mariana44 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:03 am

Today is my birthday—but I find it hard to celebrate these special occasions without George. Being able to write about him helps, so thank you for allowing me to remember him on these pages.

George loved poetry, and learning verses. He would recite the whole of “Albert and the Lion”, and because he could capture the Lancashire accent so well, he did as good a job as Stanley Holloway, [which is where he learnt it]

And as for “Brown Boots”—sorry—I mean “Brahn Boots”, because he was still a typical East Londoner, he had the perfect voice for that---and although I heard it many times—every time he came to this line, he was just so expressive

“We didn’t know---he didn’t say----he’d give his other boots away….”

George was also very fond of the poems of Christina Rossetti, and learnt many of her poems by heart, and in fact, I had 2 of his favourites read at his funeral.

He was also fascinated by “Elegy in a Country Churchyard” written by Thomas Gray, and was very pleased with himself for learning all 32 verses---and if he had a sleepless night, he would recite them until he dropped off. He tried to teach me, but I never got beyond 5/6 verses. But George became so word perfect, that he loved to surprise his friends at work, by giving them the poem, and asking them to pick a verse, a line, a word, a letter, and he would tell them what that letter was .
So the 11th verse; 2nd line; 4th word; 3rd letter---was “n”.

They would try to catch him out, but he was correct 99% of the time.

So that is just one little memory, among many, of George that I like to recall.
Mariana

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keithgood838
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Post by keithgood838 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:25 am

Hi again Paul
When I posted this 'new topic' I hoped to spread
a little knowledge and garner some in return. I am
glad to say my hopes are being fulfilled. Following my
immediate response to your 'verb' query I looked it up
in a book by my literacy hero, Bill Bryson, entitled
Troublesome Words. He explains or as being a conjunction
that emphasises the separateness of items, therefore
when or links two or more items in a sentence the verb
must also be singular. Paul, I take my hat off to you; I was
unaware of this fine distinction between or and and and
I am indebted to you for bringing it to my attention.
Many thanks
Keith
Last edited by keithgood838 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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keithgood838
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Post by keithgood838 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:45 am

Hi Marian(a)
The more I hear about your beloved George the more
I like him. Believe it or not, it is also my wife's birthday
today. Moreover Gray's Elegy is not merely my favourite poem;
I also regard it as the finest written in the English language;
it is an exposition of unfulfilled human potential. For the benefit
of other members allow me to quote just one stanza:

Full many a gem of purest ray serene
The dark unfathomed caves of ocean bear;
Full many a flower is born to blush unseen
And waste its sweetness on the desert air.


God bless dear George.

Keith

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mariana44
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Post by mariana44 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:07 pm

Keith--you will not believe this--or maybe you will--

Not only was it George's favourite poem , but that verse you quoted was his favourite verse.

I think you and George would have got along really well!
Mariana

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mariana44
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Post by mariana44 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:13 pm

Also Keith, hope your wife has a good day. So she is a Gemini lady!!!

My friends treated me to lunch out yesterday, but I will have a quiet day today.

My highlight will be going to our WI games afternoon, and playing Rummikub [numbers edition], with a coffee and biscuit !!

But that is fine, we have a chat and a laugh, and it gets me out for a couple of hours--following which I will walk the dogs--and make their day perfect :lol: :lol:
Mariana

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jon
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Post by jon » Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:07 pm

Keith

I don't think I can add anything that hasn't already been said in the debate about 'or' and 'and'; Bryson clearly beat me to it. I'm terribly busy at work at the moment so don't have time to indulge in our discussions in detail, but I hope to catch up soon.

Marian, many Happy Returns. I hope you have a great day.

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keithgood838
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Post by keithgood838 » Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:36 am

Good to see you, Jon. Your contributions to the forum
are always apposite and appreciated; however, I regard
you as being indispensable to the Annexe.
Whenever I manage to comprehend and unravel a knotty
linguistic problem I try, as an aide-memoire, to write
a verse on the subject. Thanks to my good friend, Paul jh,
I have added the following to my collection:

THE CONFUSING CONJUNCTIONS

The conjunction or defines separateness
not unlike a divorce lawyer,
while coordinator and is big on togetherness
like a matchmaker or vicar.
When in a sentence and links two or more
items, the verb they take is are
whereas with unsociable separatist or
the verb is is, always singular.

Keith
Last edited by keithgood838 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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mariana44
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Post by mariana44 » Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:58 am

I am always confused , when writing letters, whether to end with "Yours Sincerely" or "Yours Faithfully".

Is there an easy way to remember---or does it really not matter ??
Mariana

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keithgood838
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Post by keithgood838 » Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:26 pm

Hi Mariana
This is an easy one: if you refer to the recipient
by name you should end your letter: Yours sincerely.
However, the sign-off of a letter addressed as Dear Sir
or Madam is, Yours faithfully. The absence of a comma
after the introduction, Dear ... and the sign-off Yours ...
is the practice currently in vogue.
Keith
Last edited by keithgood838 on Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Gray
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Post by Gray » Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:31 am

Good question, Marian!
Thanks for the reply, Keith! :)

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Marian
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Post by Marian » Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:37 am

I was always given to understand that a business letter always finished with Yours faithfully, and a less formal letter with Yours sincerely.
Nowadays, Kind regards also seems to be used more often.
Marian :D

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keithgood838
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Post by keithgood838 » Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:03 pm

Hello again Marian, my dear
I believe the yours sincerely/yours faithfully rule
applies equally to business and personal letters; however
I never take a dogmatic stance on these matters.
Since this letter-writing topic has engendered some interest,
may I offer a few more tips?

Except in the main body of your letter you should use
'open punctuation' which means no commas after lines
of the address and no full stops after abbreviations.
If your letter is typed do not indent. Use single spacing
and leave a double space under each paragraph to separate
them. This is known as blocking. If your letter is handwritten
indent your paragraphs starting with the first under Dear...

Your address should be aligned at the top right-hand corner
of the page (some folk prefer to centre it). The date should be
set underneath with a line space above it. Also simplify dates,
e.g. 19 June 2008. I have made a study of this subject recently
so I shall be happy to try and answer any further queries.
Keith

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keithgood838
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Post by keithgood838 » Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:03 pm

Hello fellow authors.
Have you ever puzzled over in and at?
The following extract should take care of that:

WHERE IT'S AT (OR IN)

Those pesky prepositions are at it again,
here posing the perplexing question, is it at or in?
At is a punctilious imp and points to a particular position,
perhaps a precise address:
we live at 50 Pinpoint Street, Exactlythere.
Whereas in is less pedantic and tends to indicate a location,
a town, a city or large geographical area, more or less,
e.g. we live in Clover City in Affluentshire.

Keith

Note. Continuing the affluence motif, one would write:
he works at the Bank of England in Threadneedle Street.

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