Essential Albums : Matt Monro Sings Hoagy Charmichael
Re: Essential Albums : Matt Monro Sings Hoagy Charmichael
Richard or Michelle
When this album is re-released, will it contain the mono version of the album which is far better than the stereo version, I shake my head (Thinking Philistines) when I see folks saying why wasn't this or that released in Stereo when a mono release comes out, don't these people realise that mono is where all the work went into & more often than not carries more punch than the Stereo versions.
I suppose the best idea to keep the stereo folks happy would be to include both the Mono & Stereo versions on a single CD, but for quality's sake it must contain the Mono Mix.
When this album is re-released, will it contain the mono version of the album which is far better than the stereo version, I shake my head (Thinking Philistines) when I see folks saying why wasn't this or that released in Stereo when a mono release comes out, don't these people realise that mono is where all the work went into & more often than not carries more punch than the Stereo versions.
I suppose the best idea to keep the stereo folks happy would be to include both the Mono & Stereo versions on a single CD, but for quality's sake it must contain the Mono Mix.
Graham 
The Definition of a Yorkshire Man is a Scotsman With all The Generosity Squeezed Out.

The Definition of a Yorkshire Man is a Scotsman With all The Generosity Squeezed Out.
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Re: Essential Albums : Matt Monro Sings Hoagy Charmichael
Thanks for posting that,Graham.
A while back I purchased a Matt 2 on 1 Cassette from P.D.S.A. Charity shop and the cover simply listed various songwriters featured therein... I only played it over Yuletide. Duh! The second side is the Matt Hoagy...Wooh Hooh!
As regards Mono. See my earlier posting about the Sainsbury's USB retro-styled , mock-guitar amp.
Don
A while back I purchased a Matt 2 on 1 Cassette from P.D.S.A. Charity shop and the cover simply listed various songwriters featured therein... I only played it over Yuletide. Duh! The second side is the Matt Hoagy...Wooh Hooh!

As regards Mono. See my earlier posting about the Sainsbury's USB retro-styled , mock-guitar amp.

Don
Matt : Smooth, but not Glossy...
Re: Essential Albums : Matt Monro Sings Hoagy Charmichael
I'm afraid I have to disagree with you Graham in this case.
There are NO differences in the Mono mix compared to the Stereo simply because they were mixed at EXACTLY the same time.
In 1962 when these tracks were recorded EMI as a matter of course when recording in Stereo also ran a Mono machine - The same mix was fed to both machines (Obviously folded down for the mono). This is the case for both of Matt's first 2 Parlophone LP's and all his singles up to the end of 1962. (Matt recorded direct to Mono and Stereo for all but one session up to this point - see the special edition of the book for more details)
The Mono tape machine was run simultaneously to make sure that there was no generation loss by having to do a mono mix from the stereo tape.
The reason I have chose Stereo mixes on the singles album is because Matt was ALWAYS recorded with stereo at the forefront of the producers mind. Stereo mixes for Matt were not made at later dates in most cases, they were mixed at the same session as the mono so just as much work went into them. I have listened to every single mono master against every existing stereo and have found no differences in the mixes at all, edits are sometimes different as occasionally the edits were not made until years later on stereo mixes - ie they weren't issued at the time but have been subsequently.
What you have to remember is that Matt's multi-tracks often only used 3 of the four tracks available - Stereo backing plus his vocal, others used the fourth track for the rhythm section, but these were not complicated recordings where major differences could creep in.
When Matt Moved to Capitol, Mono wasn't even considered with everything being recorded in Stereo as a priority.
By the time was recording in the UK again, mono was fading into obscurity and every mono mix was a fold down.
I must however say that the Hoagy Master isn't as good as it should be, I have a suspicion that a few tracks are actually 2nd generation dubs. My suspicions were brought about by discovering a tape labeled - "Hoagy Carmichael LP - DO NOT USE FOR COPYRIGHT REASONS" - There is only a Stereo tape labeled this way not a mono. No explanation can be found for what these copyright reasons are - but I suspect that this tape may contain earlier generation masters.
I hope when we get around to the re-issue that EMI will pull this tape for me as well as the master so we can find out just what that means!
Richard
There are NO differences in the Mono mix compared to the Stereo simply because they were mixed at EXACTLY the same time.
In 1962 when these tracks were recorded EMI as a matter of course when recording in Stereo also ran a Mono machine - The same mix was fed to both machines (Obviously folded down for the mono). This is the case for both of Matt's first 2 Parlophone LP's and all his singles up to the end of 1962. (Matt recorded direct to Mono and Stereo for all but one session up to this point - see the special edition of the book for more details)
The Mono tape machine was run simultaneously to make sure that there was no generation loss by having to do a mono mix from the stereo tape.
The reason I have chose Stereo mixes on the singles album is because Matt was ALWAYS recorded with stereo at the forefront of the producers mind. Stereo mixes for Matt were not made at later dates in most cases, they were mixed at the same session as the mono so just as much work went into them. I have listened to every single mono master against every existing stereo and have found no differences in the mixes at all, edits are sometimes different as occasionally the edits were not made until years later on stereo mixes - ie they weren't issued at the time but have been subsequently.
What you have to remember is that Matt's multi-tracks often only used 3 of the four tracks available - Stereo backing plus his vocal, others used the fourth track for the rhythm section, but these were not complicated recordings where major differences could creep in.
When Matt Moved to Capitol, Mono wasn't even considered with everything being recorded in Stereo as a priority.
By the time was recording in the UK again, mono was fading into obscurity and every mono mix was a fold down.
I must however say that the Hoagy Master isn't as good as it should be, I have a suspicion that a few tracks are actually 2nd generation dubs. My suspicions were brought about by discovering a tape labeled - "Hoagy Carmichael LP - DO NOT USE FOR COPYRIGHT REASONS" - There is only a Stereo tape labeled this way not a mono. No explanation can be found for what these copyright reasons are - but I suspect that this tape may contain earlier generation masters.
I hope when we get around to the re-issue that EMI will pull this tape for me as well as the master so we can find out just what that means!
Richard
Re: Essential Albums : Matt Monro Sings Hoagy Charmichael
Hi Richard
Please forgive all my questions, Music is my passion (obbsession) in life and has been since I was 8 years old in 1973, I'm always in a constant search for the next album from whatever genre and I guess I always will be, After I had an accident 11 years ago which meant a fight for my life and left me disabled, my passion for music kept me alive and still does to this day through all the various up's and downs.
By the sound of things Matt was recorded with stereo in mind which is good, so these recordings should be fine that way. I know with other acts such as the Beatles, Sinatra, Nat King Cole the best way to hear many of their albums is mono as they were specifically recorded for mono. The Beatles mono box is the best way to hear their music, and I know the Mono LP's I have by Sinatra & NKC are preferable to the stereo counterparts with the mono showing more life and often more clarity, with NKC & Sinatra this was the case due to the fact that for Stereo they'd have 3 mics set up, one for the vocals and the other 2 split across the orchestra, yet at the same time there could be up to 17 mics plugged in to the mono board therefore picking up a wider range of instruments, it sounds silly but that's how it was up until 1957.
Richard the Beatles were recorded on to 2 then 4 & eventually 8 Track, but everything baring "Let It Be" & "Abbey Road" was recorded specifically for mono being the priority end result, both George Martin & the Beatles have said that themselves and that stereo was just an after thought, with stereo mixes often being done weeks or months later. Was it different for someone like Matt who recorded with an orchestra, did that have anything to do with the decision to make stereo the priority
I guess what I'm trying to say is that mono is these days dismissed all too easily in this stereo & 5.1 multi channel world we live in, I just hate to see mono being dismissed just for the sake of it by many folks, but if the Matt albums were specifically recorded for Stereo as you say then that's fine by me.
Please forgive all my questions, Music is my passion (obbsession) in life and has been since I was 8 years old in 1973, I'm always in a constant search for the next album from whatever genre and I guess I always will be, After I had an accident 11 years ago which meant a fight for my life and left me disabled, my passion for music kept me alive and still does to this day through all the various up's and downs.
By the sound of things Matt was recorded with stereo in mind which is good, so these recordings should be fine that way. I know with other acts such as the Beatles, Sinatra, Nat King Cole the best way to hear many of their albums is mono as they were specifically recorded for mono. The Beatles mono box is the best way to hear their music, and I know the Mono LP's I have by Sinatra & NKC are preferable to the stereo counterparts with the mono showing more life and often more clarity, with NKC & Sinatra this was the case due to the fact that for Stereo they'd have 3 mics set up, one for the vocals and the other 2 split across the orchestra, yet at the same time there could be up to 17 mics plugged in to the mono board therefore picking up a wider range of instruments, it sounds silly but that's how it was up until 1957.
Richard the Beatles were recorded on to 2 then 4 & eventually 8 Track, but everything baring "Let It Be" & "Abbey Road" was recorded specifically for mono being the priority end result, both George Martin & the Beatles have said that themselves and that stereo was just an after thought, with stereo mixes often being done weeks or months later. Was it different for someone like Matt who recorded with an orchestra, did that have anything to do with the decision to make stereo the priority
I guess what I'm trying to say is that mono is these days dismissed all too easily in this stereo & 5.1 multi channel world we live in, I just hate to see mono being dismissed just for the sake of it by many folks, but if the Matt albums were specifically recorded for Stereo as you say then that's fine by me.
Graham 
The Definition of a Yorkshire Man is a Scotsman With all The Generosity Squeezed Out.

The Definition of a Yorkshire Man is a Scotsman With all The Generosity Squeezed Out.
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Re: Essential Albums : Matt Monro Sings Hoagy Charmichael
Surround sound...Mono. I just hope you can find the Middle ground on this one, chaps
(Hi-Fi humour courtesy of the knob/slider between Bass and Treble on every Seventies Amstrad
Amp.No degrdation of the signal there, Alan!)
Lena: "The boys are talking Hoi Foi again, love."
Harry: "They'll grow out of it, Dear."
Don

(Hi-Fi humour courtesy of the knob/slider between Bass and Treble on every Seventies Amstrad
Amp.No degrdation of the signal there, Alan!)

Lena: "The boys are talking Hoi Foi again, love."
Harry: "They'll grow out of it, Dear."

Don
Matt : Smooth, but not Glossy...
Re: Essential Albums : Matt Monro Sings Hoagy Charmichael
I have to say I prefer the stereo mixes of Sinatra and Nat Cole. They actually NEVER recorded straight to stereo tape they jumped from Mono straight to three track tape which had the Orchestra in Stereo with Nat or Frank on the third track - So it was always stereo, which gives a depth and warmth to the sound that mono can not. If you compare one of those Sinatra or Cole recordings in mono to a well mastered Stereo there is little to beat it in my opinion as the mastering is what makes the difference. I love to be in the middle of the Orchestra with the vocalist not in front of the vocalist with the orchestra lined up behind him!
The Beatles are a different category entirely as the work they did was multi tracked in it's truest form - ie layered bit by bit so mixing is far more likely to have major differences. I have to say for all their faults I do prefer to listen to the Stereo Beatles discs just because they have so much more depth - but it's all a matter of taste. But what you say about the Mixing is not altogether true - The Beatles (White Album) was actually mixed in Stereo as preference with the Mono taking a back seat! (John even mixed Revolution No.9 in stereo himself).
Matt wasn't seen as a standard 'Pop Star' by EMI they knew he had a more adult following. It was the more affluent adult population that had Stereo record players at home so his records were made with that in mind - not only that but Liberty Records - Who pre 1966 were Matt's US label insisted on Stereo and this is why some tracks that were only issued in Mono have Stereo mixes prepared as well for the American Market just incase.
Far too much material by Matt has been issued in Mono on CD (Most of the Capitol material for instance) that should have been issued from the fabulous sounding Stereo masters.
On the new set listen to 'Other People' or 'The Lady Smiles' and tell me they don't sound fabulous in Stereo.
I would never dismiss Mono, but only when the Stereo is really poor or where it doesn't match the hit version is it my preference - we'll have to agree to disagree on this one I think!
Richard
The Beatles are a different category entirely as the work they did was multi tracked in it's truest form - ie layered bit by bit so mixing is far more likely to have major differences. I have to say for all their faults I do prefer to listen to the Stereo Beatles discs just because they have so much more depth - but it's all a matter of taste. But what you say about the Mixing is not altogether true - The Beatles (White Album) was actually mixed in Stereo as preference with the Mono taking a back seat! (John even mixed Revolution No.9 in stereo himself).
Matt wasn't seen as a standard 'Pop Star' by EMI they knew he had a more adult following. It was the more affluent adult population that had Stereo record players at home so his records were made with that in mind - not only that but Liberty Records - Who pre 1966 were Matt's US label insisted on Stereo and this is why some tracks that were only issued in Mono have Stereo mixes prepared as well for the American Market just incase.
Far too much material by Matt has been issued in Mono on CD (Most of the Capitol material for instance) that should have been issued from the fabulous sounding Stereo masters.
On the new set listen to 'Other People' or 'The Lady Smiles' and tell me they don't sound fabulous in Stereo.
I would never dismiss Mono, but only when the Stereo is really poor or where it doesn't match the hit version is it my preference - we'll have to agree to disagree on this one I think!
Richard
Re: Essential Albums : Matt Monro Sings Hoagy Charmichael
There's nothing wrong with disagreeing Richard we all have different tastes 
I maybe didn't word my initial comments correctly, I know the Sinatra & NKC stuff was recorded direct to 3 track, that's what I meant when describinging how the stereo was recorded meaning each microphone being dedicated to one track of the 3 track tape. I do prefer the mono for the reasons I stated, for example on the Stereo Sinatra "Only the Lonely" Bill Millers piano is at times barely audible due to the limits of the 3 microphone set up connected to the 3 track machine, yet at the same time there where 8 mono microphones used & spread around the orchestra then connected to the mono board (the Stereo & Mono boards being in different rooms), because of this more individual instruments are heard as a result of the extra mics, it also gives the album a more intimate & desolate sound & feeling, the beauty of which was shown in last years MOFI audiophile release.
According to Steve Hoffman's coments regarding his mastering of 7 NKC albums soon to be released as a SACD's on the Analogue Productions Label, the benefits of these extra mics connected up to the mono board, makes the mono versions of the albums preferable to the stereo due the further instrumentaion they pick up. It's not the medium mono/stereo that makes the difference, it's how they were recorded and with these 2 artists up to 1957 the mono recordings were given more care and attention.
With the Beatles mono albums for me they have more punch, but what really makes the early stereo albums up to "Help" a no go for me is the weird panning stereo, with say most of the sound from one speaker and then just a tamborine or drums or vocal in the other they just sound plain weird.

I maybe didn't word my initial comments correctly, I know the Sinatra & NKC stuff was recorded direct to 3 track, that's what I meant when describinging how the stereo was recorded meaning each microphone being dedicated to one track of the 3 track tape. I do prefer the mono for the reasons I stated, for example on the Stereo Sinatra "Only the Lonely" Bill Millers piano is at times barely audible due to the limits of the 3 microphone set up connected to the 3 track machine, yet at the same time there where 8 mono microphones used & spread around the orchestra then connected to the mono board (the Stereo & Mono boards being in different rooms), because of this more individual instruments are heard as a result of the extra mics, it also gives the album a more intimate & desolate sound & feeling, the beauty of which was shown in last years MOFI audiophile release.
According to Steve Hoffman's coments regarding his mastering of 7 NKC albums soon to be released as a SACD's on the Analogue Productions Label, the benefits of these extra mics connected up to the mono board, makes the mono versions of the albums preferable to the stereo due the further instrumentaion they pick up. It's not the medium mono/stereo that makes the difference, it's how they were recorded and with these 2 artists up to 1957 the mono recordings were given more care and attention.
With the Beatles mono albums for me they have more punch, but what really makes the early stereo albums up to "Help" a no go for me is the weird panning stereo, with say most of the sound from one speaker and then just a tamborine or drums or vocal in the other they just sound plain weird.
Graham 
The Definition of a Yorkshire Man is a Scotsman With all The Generosity Squeezed Out.

The Definition of a Yorkshire Man is a Scotsman With all The Generosity Squeezed Out.
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Re: Essential Albums : Matt Monro Sings Hoagy Charmichael
Splendid. A Gentlemans handshake and all back to the Pavillion for tea.
I agree about the stereo panning, Graham . Andrew Sandovals Monkees remasters are prone to this. Not his fault-the info is there on the master-tapes.but there is only so much 60's Maaan
a 21st Century Boy can take.
(Whaddya mean, " Boy? " )
Don

I agree about the stereo panning, Graham . Andrew Sandovals Monkees remasters are prone to this. Not his fault-the info is there on the master-tapes.but there is only so much 60's Maaan
a 21st Century Boy can take.

(Whaddya mean, " Boy? " )

Don
Matt : Smooth, but not Glossy...
Re: Essential Albums : Matt Monro Sings Hoagy Charmichael
Well you learn something every day - I did not realize that they used two different mic set ups and desks for the early Capitol stereos - This certainly makes sense. And explains the cello on When I Fall In Love disappearing in the stereo mix (I always thought this was a mixing mistake and that it must have been on the vocal track but perhaps it wasn't!
I wonder when they stopped using this system - it can't have been done for very long. Late 50's only I would guess.
Matt certainly never recorded this way.
Richard
I wonder when they stopped using this system - it can't have been done for very long. Late 50's only I would guess.
Matt certainly never recorded this way.
Richard
Re: Essential Albums : Matt Monro Sings Hoagy Charmichael
Richard
The last time the dual recording set up was used this way for Nat King Cole from what I can remember without looking it up was 22nd November 1957. If I remember correctly at Capitol the mono mics (8 being the minimum) were connected to 2 mono boards (one being for back Up), with the 3rd board being the 3 track board for stereo and located on a different floor, with 1 mic for vocal, the orchestra split into 2 either side of the room with over head mics to each side, this was also the Situation for Sinatra & presumably other artists recording at the Capitol tower.
The Capitol engineers & Producers of the time including Voyle Gilmore & Dave Cavanaugh viewed stereo as a gimmick and a fad, it wasn't until 1957 for NKC that this set up was abandoned in favour of soley recording for stereo onto 3 track. The first Sinatra album recorded in Stereo was "Where Are You", the last time the dual mono/stereo set up was used for Sinatra was the "Come Dance With me" album from 1959, from there on it was all to 3 track alone.
So when people say that many MONO Capitol albums of this time period were either better or sounded different to the stereo, it's not just in the imagination it's actually fact because seperate mono & stereo boards were used with more mics connected to the mono boards (8 being the minimum) compared to only 3 to the stereo board, the mono boards were phased out from around 1957 onwards in favour of the ever more poular stereo.
One thing Steve Hoffman has said regarding NKC's "Love is the Thing" 2 songs are in mono and this is because there were problems setting up the 3 track board for stereo recordings, he says you can hear the engineers on the mono master tapes (Both Mono Boards recorded ok) frantically trying to fix the problem on the 3 track machine. For 30 years the mono LP had 12 tracks while the Stereo release had only 10, when Larry Walsh first mastered the album to CD in 1987 the CD was in Stereo for 10 tracks and he added the mono tracks for completion. This same scenario is also presumed to be the reason why for years Sinatra's "Where Are You" only had 11 tracks, with the mono "I Cover the Waterfront" only appearing on CD in recent years.
The last time the dual recording set up was used this way for Nat King Cole from what I can remember without looking it up was 22nd November 1957. If I remember correctly at Capitol the mono mics (8 being the minimum) were connected to 2 mono boards (one being for back Up), with the 3rd board being the 3 track board for stereo and located on a different floor, with 1 mic for vocal, the orchestra split into 2 either side of the room with over head mics to each side, this was also the Situation for Sinatra & presumably other artists recording at the Capitol tower.
The Capitol engineers & Producers of the time including Voyle Gilmore & Dave Cavanaugh viewed stereo as a gimmick and a fad, it wasn't until 1957 for NKC that this set up was abandoned in favour of soley recording for stereo onto 3 track. The first Sinatra album recorded in Stereo was "Where Are You", the last time the dual mono/stereo set up was used for Sinatra was the "Come Dance With me" album from 1959, from there on it was all to 3 track alone.
So when people say that many MONO Capitol albums of this time period were either better or sounded different to the stereo, it's not just in the imagination it's actually fact because seperate mono & stereo boards were used with more mics connected to the mono boards (8 being the minimum) compared to only 3 to the stereo board, the mono boards were phased out from around 1957 onwards in favour of the ever more poular stereo.
One thing Steve Hoffman has said regarding NKC's "Love is the Thing" 2 songs are in mono and this is because there were problems setting up the 3 track board for stereo recordings, he says you can hear the engineers on the mono master tapes (Both Mono Boards recorded ok) frantically trying to fix the problem on the 3 track machine. For 30 years the mono LP had 12 tracks while the Stereo release had only 10, when Larry Walsh first mastered the album to CD in 1987 the CD was in Stereo for 10 tracks and he added the mono tracks for completion. This same scenario is also presumed to be the reason why for years Sinatra's "Where Are You" only had 11 tracks, with the mono "I Cover the Waterfront" only appearing on CD in recent years.
Graham 
The Definition of a Yorkshire Man is a Scotsman With all The Generosity Squeezed Out.

The Definition of a Yorkshire Man is a Scotsman With all The Generosity Squeezed Out.
Re: Essential Albums : Matt Monro Sings Hoagy Charmichael
Yes, I had know about the two mono tracks and had assumed a faulty machine - nice that this has finally been confirmed.
This appears to have happened to Matt too 'April Fool' Was recorded in Stereo but this was never used. The Stereo album contains the mono mix in awful mock stereo. No paperwork survives ot say why and the session tapes are all gone.
I think this must be the only studio i've ever heard of using this system.
As I say Abbey Road recorded to both formats at once but it was spilt from the same desk - I believe RCA did the same on early Binaural tapes of Perry Como and Elvis etc.
Oh by the way - I assume you mean Rubber Soul when you talk about the odd mix (Help! is quite normal) . The remixes of these tracks on the YS Songtrack are far better! I for one would certainly be in favour of modern sounding remixes of all the albums.
Richard
This appears to have happened to Matt too 'April Fool' Was recorded in Stereo but this was never used. The Stereo album contains the mono mix in awful mock stereo. No paperwork survives ot say why and the session tapes are all gone.
I think this must be the only studio i've ever heard of using this system.
As I say Abbey Road recorded to both formats at once but it was spilt from the same desk - I believe RCA did the same on early Binaural tapes of Perry Como and Elvis etc.
Oh by the way - I assume you mean Rubber Soul when you talk about the odd mix (Help! is quite normal) . The remixes of these tracks on the YS Songtrack are far better! I for one would certainly be in favour of modern sounding remixes of all the albums.
Richard
Re: Essential Albums : Matt Monro Sings Hoagy Charmichael
Hi RichardRmoore wrote:Oh by the way - I assume you mean Rubber Soul when you talk about the odd mix (Help! is quite normal) . The remixes of these tracks on the YS Songtrack are far better! I for one would certainly be in favour of modern sounding remixes of all the albums.
Richard
Yes you're right Help is in fact pretty good. The First 4 beatles albums "Please Please Me" - "For sale" and then "Rubber Soul" are not great with the stereo panning issue, the first 2 "Please Please Me" & "With The Beatles" I find especially unlistenable in Stereo. The thing about the Beatles mono vs stereo is also the fact that many of the songs have some quite significant differences, different vocals, guitar parts, some tracks coming from different takes spliced together on one but not the other and different backing tracks, I saw a list recently for the differences on the "White Album" between mono & Stereo and there were nearly 30 differences, some really obvious others less so, it's actually quite fun trying to pick them out.

Graham 
The Definition of a Yorkshire Man is a Scotsman With all The Generosity Squeezed Out.

The Definition of a Yorkshire Man is a Scotsman With all The Generosity Squeezed Out.